Piper Archives - Scott Sky Smith Insurance

Tiger or Arrow

Posted on November 21, 2019 by skysmith

Tiger or Arrow

Received this email about buying a Tiger or Arrow.

Hi Scott, I attended your seminar on “How to buy an airplane”. This will be my first airplane purchase, and I would like to spend around $75,000 or less. I think I’ve narrowed down my options, and I was wondering if I could get your thoughts on the following two aircraft a Tiger or Arrow.

Tiger: 1976-1979 vs. 1990-1993. Are there any advantages with paying more for the later year models? I found many ’76-’79 models with low hours asking between $36K – $65K depending on condition. The ’90’s models seem to be $75K and up. What are your thoughts?

Piper Arrow: The owner of my flight school asked me if I was interested in buying a ’73-’74 Arrow as a leaseback for the flight school. Personally, I do not really need a retractable, and the cruise speed is about the same as the Tiger. But I only fly about 75 hours per year so the flight school would help offset the costs a little. It would be the only retractable (and I think the only low wing – except for one Tiger) for rent in my area, so I expect that it would mostly be rented by more experienced pilots, and according to the flight school owner, also those who are going for their commercial license.

I’ve run the numbers for a lease back on this model, and after all expenses, maintenance and engine/prop reserve, they seem to work in my favor by about $750-1,000 per month, based on 60/hours rental per month at $120/hour. Am I right? What is the best way to evaluate a leaseback scenario?

I really enjoyed your seminar, and I’ve read your book “How to buy a single-engine airplane.” You’re honest with the facts and figures, and you don’t pretend that buying an airplane is not a big deal – it is! I appreciate that! I have 108 total hours, mostly in a C-172. I really like the low-wing models, and I’d like to make trips to Phoenix, so the cruise speed is somewhat significant, 135 knots is nice.

My answers about the Tiger or Arrow

The Tiger is a great aircraft. It offers retractable gear speeds with fixed gear. I owned an AA1A (two seat) for a while and really enjoyed flying it. I have a few hours in a Cheetah and Tiger which I really like.

I am not sure that there is any significant difference between an old and a new Tiger…except for age. I tell a lot of people to buy as new as possible. But sometimes an older aircraft that has all the upgrades and all the avionics that the newer one does might be a better deal. All the goodies without all the extra expense. If you buy old and put new “stuff” in it, you’ll get pennies on the dollar back for the investment.

I think the big factor would be hours, equipment and the condition of the older models. Since the Tiger is a different construction (bonded honeycomb) age can have a dramatic effect on the seams/bonding. You would want to check for damage to joints and seams from any paint stripper and any corrosion. Of course, it doesn’t matter if it is a new or old aircraft that would still be a concern!

As far as the Arrow? It is another good aircraft. It is especially good as a personal run around aircraft and commercial trainer. But because it is a retractable gear aircraft your maintenance and insurance costs are going to be higher. Not only the gear but you also have a constant speed propeller. The Arrow is cheap, as far as maintenance is concerned, but still it will typically cost more than a Tiger… for the same speed and load abilities. Insurance for rental on the Arrow could be $5000 a year or more (depending on the value).

Leaseback. If you put your aircraft on leaseback it becomes a piece of equipment. You will not have the freedom to use it or control its care like your own. But if you use it as a piece of equipment, don’t get personally attached; don’t worry about the details, (like scheduling your flights through the FBO, etc.). It might be okay.

Make sure you know all the details of the contract before you do a leaseback. Many FBO’s require that the owner cover all the expenses. Understand how they figure the cost of maintenance and what type of maintenance will be expected. Just think, at 60 hours month, it will need the 100-hour inspection (a mini annual) every month and a half. How much are they going to charge for the 100 hour inspection? Are parts discounted? Will you get a break on expenses? When you calculate your cost per hour, make sure you take into account the speed at which you will need an engine or prop overhaul or need to comply with AD’s and service bulletins etc.

If it is going to be your personal pride and joy, I don’t think you would be happy as a leaseback. Leaseback does help pay the bills. But it also increases the hours the aircraft is flown. Adding hours, wear and tear and abuse. A commercial trainer will be used to teach people maneuvers, engine outs, landings, etc. All of which add to the wear on an aircraft. It is still being used as a trainer (even though it is being used by current pilots).

Personally, if the cost per hour is a factor, buy an earlier Tiger at a lower cost. Get the most equipment and lowest hours you can and fly it as your own aircraft. If you can fly 75 to 100 hours a year, it would be cheaper per hour to own the aircraft than to rent. And with the Tiger you won’t have the higher insurance and maintenance costs.

Grumman Tiger

Piper Arrow

Missing Logbooks?

Posted on September 24, 2019 by skysmith

Missing Logbooks.

Should you even consider buying an aircraft that is missing logbooks?

Every now and then you run into a situation where the aircraft logbooks are missing, or have been lost and reconstructed. Should that stop you from buying the aircraft?

Well, maybe. Just because the logs are gone doesn’t mean it is a bad deal. Try to substantiate the aircraft and engine hours (along with compliance with Airworthiness Directives (AD’s) and service bulletins) through the use of past maintenance records (invoices, shop tickets, etc.) If it doesn’t have any records, all the hours, overhaul estimates and repairs, are a guess. With past work orders and shop tickets you can attempt to rebuild the records. This would at least provide a reasonable base of hours to start from. It also depends on the use of the aircraft. Some commercial operations require that the hours and the TBO requirements be validated in the logs or maintenance records or the part cannot be used. If you don’t have a record of those, the use may require the overhaul of that component. For most general aviation owners, the logbooks for the engine will probably be more valuable than the airframe. The airframe, like the engine, can have critical AD’s that need to be monitored. Most pilots worry more about the engine condition than the airframe. Additionally, it would be worthwhile to do a search of the FAA records for any Major Repair or Alteration reports (Form 337).

This also brings up another question, should you pay less for an aircraft without logbooks?

As a personal buyer for a non-commercial use, the logbooks still have a value, although not as much as a commercial operator, but the price should still reflect the incomplete or missing logs. How much money are the logs worth? The guideline for most single engines aircraft logs is somewhere around $5,000. Light twins are worth $5,000 to $10,000. Establishing a price hinges on what information is available. If the work orders and records are there, and hours can be substantiated, the logs are less critical. If the missing logs are from years ago, but the aircraft has been maintained, overhauled and recorded since the time of loss, it would be less of a concern. Logbooks have also been known to show up after the purchase of an aircraft. The holders of the logbooks might have a reason for keeping the logs from the seller. In those cases of “re-appearing logs”, the holder usually wants to be paid for the logs. In some cases it might be worth the cost.