Tag Archives: Cessna

Another limited rental question.

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Recent question about limited rental.

I have read your book and got to say a brief hello to you at Oshkosh a couple years back. (I was sitting in front of you at the author’s session) I wonder if I might trouble you for some advice.

I have just completed my Private and have 60+ hours in a 172. (Currently working on my instrument) I would like to move up to a 182 Skylane because it is a better instrument platform and can carry 4 real people.  The challenge is finding a 182 to rent.  (It’s the basic Catch 22.  To move up to a performance airplane you need experience, but getting it is difficult.) The rental companies here rent them, but they require 100 hours total time and 10 hours in type and require you to use THEIR CFI if you want to get the hours.  (I want to use my CFI because he has 4000 hours (4 times the hours of the most experienced CFI at the rental companies). One of my friends owns a Skylane and wants it flown more.  He also uses my CFI (his neighbor at the airpark) and would let him do my hours for time in type (I will do total in the 172).  The concern is over insurance.  I want to be able to pay him for the use of his plane, he doesn’t want profit, just coverage of the per hour costs. 

My basic questions:

  1. Can I pay him per hour costs without violating the FAR’s?
  2. Could I become a minor partner and then pay him for the expenses?
  3. Should I try to get named on his insurance policy?
  4. Any advice on how best to handle this?

Thanks for any help you can provide.  I thought the book was great.  One more side question:  How do you feel about the Cessna 206 as a plane for someone like me, wanting it for family of four for basic travel.

Thanks for the note. The 182’s are a great aircraft and probably one of the best IFR platforms available. I do understand the rental problems.  The same problems will occur if you want to fly your neighbor’s aircraft. The underwriters will put on some sort of minimum hour requirement and or training.

So, in answer to your questions.

    1. Can I pay him per hour costs without violating the FAR’s?  The FAA allows reimbursement of expenses, but basically the owner cannot make a profit. Most insurance policies say the same type of thing.  BUT… I have had people set up limited rental agreements and have them approved by the underwriters so that there is no question as to coverage.
    2. Could I become a minor partner and then pay him for the expenses? I suppose but you do not need to. You would still need to be named on his policy if you do not meet the policy open pilot requirements. Or see the above answer.
    3. Should I try to get named on his insurance policy? Definitely.  Typically the policy language will not permit you to fly unless you are named and approved OR meet the open pilot warranty.  Which you probably will not because of the aircraft model and your hours. You will not be covered for training or flying on his policy unless you are named, and the policy is amended to include you and your training.  This will more than likely increase his premium, but it will also make sure he has coverage.
    4. Any advice on how best to handle this? I think I would ask to be named on the policy (unless he wants you to be a partner) and plan on paying just for the reimbursement of expenses to the owner.  You would also want to split the cost of the basic insurance and then you would pay for the additional cost of adding you to the policy.  Another option would be, add you to the policy and ask the underwriters for a limited rental endorsement.  There would be a charge for this, but it would allow him to charge you “rent” for the use of the aircraft and still be covered on the insurance. You need to make sure the local FAA is in agreement with this. Some FSDO offices will not bellow a rental agreement for a private owner.

Piper Cherokee 140?

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Recent question about buying a Piper Cherokee 140.

Basically the question is, Should I buy a Piper Cherokee 140 or a Cessna 172?

“I just finished reading your book “How to Buy a Single-Engine Airplane”.  Man, it was great!  I am a private pilot with 400+ hours in a Cessna 150.  Five years ago, I sold it thinking that I would not fly enough to merit the expense.  Ever since, I have been like a caged animal looking for a hole to escape into the wild blue yonder!  With your beautiful little book, I found a hole in which to escape from my self-made prison and am now in a hunt for a Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee 140.  I have $40K in a fruit jar to invest.  Now for the BIG question, what can I expect in terms of hours on the plane, year (age), etc.?  Please help me!”

Wow, thank you for the kind comments about the book!  Glad you are excited about getting another aircraft. You can actually consider a number of nice aircraft for the $40,000 range.  You won’t usually get new engines, new paint and a panel full of new flat panel displays, but you should be able to get a nice basic digital IFR, mid-time engine, good-looking aircraft.

It appears that you should be able to buy a Piper 140 for a little less than the Cessna 172.  I think that is because it is really a 2+2 aircraft, even more than the Cessna 172.  The original Piper 140 models came from the factory as two seat aircraft or two seats with a small jump seat in the baggage area.  The PA28-140 does not have a baggage door to access the area from the outside or the baggage space behind the rear seat like the Cessna 172 does.  Many people equate the Cherokee 140 to an enlarged Cessna 150 although I do not think that is really a fair comparison.

The Cherokee 140 can be a very economical traveling machine for two people with the ability to take a third (or possible a fourth if they are really small) for a ride.  Check out the aviation classifieds (Trade a Plane etc.) and you will be surprised at what is available.  Do not discount a high time airframe aircraft.  Take into account its use, condition and maintenance.

I went shopping and found a number of 1960’s era PA28-140’s priced right around $40,000.  A few were IFR equipped; most were 4,000 to 5,000 hour airframes and 1,200 to 1,500 hour engines.  The Lycoming 0-320’s have a 2,000 TBO and the average person flies less than 50 hours year, which gives you eight to 10 years of use before you need an overhaul.  The Cessna 172’s in that price range were 1956 to 1962 models.  Most of the 1965 and newer Cessna 172 aircraft were over $40K. There is an occasional later year, high time, run out engine for less money.  To find the later model Cessna (or Pipers for that matter) at the lower prices you have to monitor the ads and be ready to buy.  Late model and low prices sell quickly.

Piper Cherokee 140

 

Cessna 172

 

What about wheel pants?

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Interesting question about wheel pants.

wheel pants

The question came up about buying an aircraft that doesn’t have wheel pants (fairings). Is it really worth the money just to make it look better? Or is there more value to fairings than just looks.

My thoughts, of course, it also depends on the aircraft.

Wheel fairings or wheel pants do more than just look good. But some aircraft are designed with a landing gear that doesn’t support wheel fairing (trailing link gear like the Beechcraft  Sundowner).

Fairings can also increase the cruise and flight performance of an aircraft.  Although it is usually only one or two knots.  While that is not much of a speed increase, any boost in cruise speed is better than nothing.

Wheel fairings can also protect the aircraft from being damaged from inadvertent rocks being thrown against the wings, cabin or tail surfaces.  If you are flying from dry smooth or  paved runways its probably a good thing to have fairings.  If you are flying from dirt mud snow or worse, leave the fairings in the hanger.   Same goes for unimproved strips.  Rough terrain will just break the fairings into pieces.

Even though, if you think about it,  this is probably where you need them the most. Because they also have a few drawbacks like they can be clogged with rocks, snow and mud.  And they can be damaged by rocks and debris picked up on the runways.

Oh, and fairings get in the way when airing up those low tires and fixing a flat.

And those Cessna nose wheel shimmies, that can destroy a wheel fairing.

I guess it really comes down to the aircraft, how you are using it and where you are going.

But personally, I like the looks of most aircraft when they have wheel fairings.